The Mad and Crip Theology Podcast

Season 4 Episode 9: Kay Louise Aldred and Katherine Schneider May 30, 2025 • Amy Panton and Miriam Spies

In this episode of the Mad and Crip Theology Podcast, we sit down with Kay Louise Aldred and Kathie Schneider to explore spiritual abuse, belonging, and faith through neurodivergent and disabled lenses.

Kay talks about the urgent need for safeguarding in faith and wellness spaces, especially for neurodivergent women and girls, and shares red and green flags for healthy spiritual communities. Kathie reflects on her life as a blind theologian, her evolving relationship with faith, and how metaphors in scripture can either harm or heal. We ask honest, grounding questions about prayer, interdependence, abuse, and what it means to truly belong.

Based on Kay's piece “Safeguarding Neurodivergent Individuals from Spiritual Abuse” and Kathie’s “Blind Faith: Beyond ‘Amazing Grace’” from the Fall 2024 issue of The Canadian Journal of Theology, Mental Health and Disability.

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#educateevolveembody #embodiment #spirituality #depathologise #rehumanise #safeguarding #neurodivergent #spiritualabuse #theology

Sandra Bargman words ...

Ever since I discovered her, I have been quite taken with Kay’s experience & teachings of #embodimentspirituality

In particular, her understanding of the relationship of the nervous system & the healing of trauma to our experiencing ourselves as divinity DIVINITY that is our BIRTHRIGHT #tangibledivinity

In these challenging times of spiritual disconnect, collapse culture, & climate crisis and the growing mental health issues as a result, I feel there is no more important work than what Kay is teaching, modelling & embodying. This conversation is a masterclass for the times in which we live

Is there anything better on Valentines Day than Making Love with the Divine?

In this episode, Kay shares her journey from her religious upbringing into seminary, discovering shamanistic & energy work, getting booted from Anglican seminary training, to stepping fully into embodied spirituality. We discuss

What is metacognition?

We re-visit the understanding of the word shamanism as a living dynamic

We talk about her powerful book, Making Love with the Divine @girlgodbooks

Kay expands on her understanding of the Nervous System (& the healing of trauma) as our divine sacred centre.

Using her religious vernacular, this becomes her re-telling of Eve & the Genesis story through her own lived experience

Kay weaves together the parasympathetic (feminine energy) with the sympathetic response (masculine)

Kay shares the liberation of her lineage story of her paternal Grandmother, a creative, religious & eccentric force in Kay’s young life through the Theatre of Church

Witnessing funerals & grief was a powerful lesson in her early years

She details her spiritual journey: the foundational role her grandmother played > moving into theological academia > teaching theology > Anglican Ordination training while at the same time training in shamanism > leaving her religious training > her deconstruction of the control of theology over her and stepping fully into her experience of Embodiment Spirituality

“We are searching for an alternative world within this one”. Spiritual/Sexual abuse in the church & other spiritual communities & the need for safeguarding

Listen here on Spotify but it is available on all your favourite platforms​

In conclusion, safeguarding neurodivergent individuals is a collective responsibility and one that cannot be ignored in any sphere or organisation in society because abusers and predators are everywhere.

In the past, it has been easier to blame the victims for not protecting themselves, being too kind, having poor boundaries, or wearing the wrong clothing. Instead, we should focus on the perpetrators and those who enable them, including individual bystanders and whole institutions.

We need to come to terms with the extent and prevalence of abuse perpetration in all spheres of society, including among our moral, spiritual, and religious leadership and organisations.

Religious and spiritual communities, therefore, need robust safeguarding procedures for this demographic who may have never fulfilled their meaning, purpose, connection and belonging needs due to trauma, prior abuse, and victimisation.

... as neurodivergent individuals make up a high percentage of attendees ... I continue to argue that both religious and mainstream wellness and ‘new age’ spiritual settings need an external regulatory body with oversight and assessment of these venues."

Conclusion to the Invited Commentary 'Safeguarding Neurodivergent Individuals from Spiritual Abuse' I wrote for The Canadian Journal for Theology Mental Health & Disability 4 no. 2, Fall 2024 (ISSN 2563-9374) @madandcrip

Link to full commentary in comments. It's free to access. Please share.

#educateevolveembody #embodiededucation #embodimentspirituality #inandthrough #fleshyknowing #spiritualneedsarehumanneeds
#safeguarding #neurodivergent

“We all have fundamental needs for meaning, purpose, connection and belonging and continuously seek to fulfil them throughout our lives.

This search, however, may lead us into community or group settings which are unhealthy or into interactions with predatory individuals, which puts us at risk of exploitation and harm.
​
Spiritual needs are the basic human needs for meaning, purpose, belonging and connection to something greater than oneself. These needs are deeply individual and can vary widely from person to person.

Spiritual needs are not limited to religion but encompass a broader ‘sense of spirituality’, which can include a connection to nature, a longing for inner peace, or being able to contribute, feeling like we fit in, and being seen, heard, and valued within community. “

To mark the publication of our new NdC Original resource: Safeguarding Neurodivergent Individuals from Spiritual Abuse, Kay Louise Aldred shares her experience of spiritual abuse and offers two suggested applications for the resource she has authored.I doubt I’m alone in the neurodivergent community in being a ‘seeker’ of belonging, connection, meaning and purpose, or as someone who has looked for these things within a variety of community settings, organisations, and places, after not experiencing them in my family of origin or schooling.   

This lifelong compulsion and search to fulfil these (entirely natural, yet unmet) needs positioned me onto a lifelong path of studying, experiencing, and training in theology, spirituality, and wellness modalities. 

On my journey and within these communities, I encountered extremes and very little moderation, ‘middle way’ or balance.  There were either blissful, ecstatic, and sacred teachings, practices and experiences of love, transcendence, and oneness (often dissociative in nature and out of touch with reality and day to day life) or teachings, practices and experiences of the exact opposite, hate, darkness, and division.  In addition, I have personally experienced myself or witnessed others being groomed, exploited, bullied, and abused, including sexually, within these settings; religious, spiritual and wellness forums.  

It was all very binary; either/or, us versus them, right or wrong, which on the one hand appealed to my longing for the ‘right’ way to live but on the other led to fear, mistrust, stress, restriction, masking, and exclusion. 

In my lived personal and professional experience, I believe neurodivergence has increased my own and others vulnerability and risk within these arenas.  Dr Devon Price writes in Unmasking Autism. The Power of Embracing our Hidden Neurodiversity, that although they have found no empirical evidence of the prevalence of this, they also see the correlation.  Price writes, 

‘When you have never been able to move through the world comfortably, you’ll seek relief and meaning where you can find it.  For a subset of Autistic people, that means falling into abusive, cultlike communities.”— Dr Devon Price, Unmasking Autism.  The Power of Embracing our Hidden Neurodiversity, p 132  With that said, here at Neurodiverse Connection we have produced a new resource for our Grooming and Coercive Control Summit called Safeguarding Neurodivergent Individuals from Spiritual Abuse. I’d like to offer two suggestions for its wider application below: 

01
Andrew Tate as a promotor of abuse, and his exploitation of the human need for purpose, meaning and belonging. While opinions about Andrew Tate can vary widely, there are certain aspects of his public persona and statements which can be red flagged: 

• Toxic Masculinity: Some of Tate's statements and beliefs have been interpreted as promoting toxic masculinity, which can perpetuate misogyny and abuse of women. 
• Stigmatisation of Mental Health: Tate has made controversial comments about mental health, suggesting that individuals experiencing mental health distress are weak.  
• Victim-Blaming: Some of Tate's statements have been perceived as victim-blaming, particularly in the context of mental health struggles and sexual violence. 
• Aggression and Verbal Abuse: Some people find Tate's communication style to be aggressive and confrontational, which can create a hostile or intimidating environment. 

02
Online Wellness Influencers and their online courses as fraudulent and exploitive. Red flags to consider when discerning whether to follow an online influencer or buy their products or resources: 

• Lack of Credibility: If the course is not accredited, it might not meet educational standards. Plus check the qualifications of the influencer – are they qualified professionally and academically to give advice? 
• Too Good to Be True: Does the course promises unrealistic outcomes career or life wise or a cure? Education and wellbeing take time and effort. 
• Ambiguity or Undue Pressure regarding Costs: If you feel pressured to enrol quickly due to ‘limited spots’ or ‘time-sensitive’ discounts, it's a warning sign. In addition, refund policies should be clear too. 
• Misinformation: Watch out for communities spreading unverified or harmful health advice.  
• Extreme or Dangerous Practices: Communities advocating extreme, dangerous, or unregulated wellness, spiritual or dietary practices without proper scientific backing or research, can pose serious health risks. 
• Exclusionary Behaviour: If a community discriminates against certain groups, promotes unhealthy body image standards, or promotes exclusive ideologies, it may not supportive or safe space.

Remember to trust your gut instinct. If you are unsure or encounter any of these or other red flags consult professionals, do additional research or contact national advisory organisations, such as Citizens Advice, or ask trusted friends or family to get alternative perspectives. 


This is a repost of a blog originally posted here: https://ndconnection.co.uk/blog/spiritual-safeguarding?rq=aldred

Original post date 20th November 2023. 

Kay Louise Aldred highlights the sexist expectations and stereotypes that compound the marginalisation of Autistic girls and women, increasing their vulnerability to grooming and coercive and controlling behaviour.

Kay delivered a webinar as part of the G&CC Summit 2023.It is not the responsibility of girls to protect themselves from predators – it is the responsibility of society protect them. And this requires us all to be the change we want to see. 

Hypersensitivity, rejection dysphoria, deep empathy, vulnerability due to trauma, exclusion and isolation, alongside taking people at their word and not being able to fully read, comprehend or believe the depravity and manipulation of the ulterior motives of others mean I’ve been easy ‘prey’ as an autistic girl and woman.  

And having worked with hundreds of teenage girls in a pastoral and educational capacity, and more recently adult women in a coaching role, many of whom are neurodivergent, I know I’m not alone in this. Indeed. I see it as a pattern, and it is alarming to me how prevalent the grooming, coercive control, bullying, abuse and sexual violence (1) is amongst this demographic of society. 

When autistic girls can be overly trusting and when starved connection, especially when their difference has led them to experience bullying or ridicule in the past, can misread grooming (grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them) (2) for love and care. Their innocence can easily be identified by predators who choose the right words of flattery or compliments or offer gifts to gain trust. Once in the grip of the groomer the isolation, secrecy, offending and coercive control follows, invariably, unless spotted by a caregiver or professional, undisturbed. 

The signs and symptoms of grooming and coercive control, which vary from one person to the next, but include sudden behaviour changes, being secretive about whereabouts and phone, missing school, alcohol or drug misuse, increased meltdown, shutdown, and stimming, can be spotted too late once the grooming and abuse is established. 

There is an interconnected and feminist piece to acknowledge of course. One which exacerbates this phenomenon. Girls are conditioned to be ‘nice,’ people please and be resourced from by others (aka ‘used’). We are more susceptible to being groomed and coerced as societal decency literally grooms us into not following our biological impulses and instincts – not listening to our embodied knowing, intuition, and ‘neuroception’ (3) because good girls don’t object, shout, fight or get mad. They don’t say no. And frustratingly evidence suggests that there is a gender difference in the response men and women exhibit when under stress and threat, that being ‘fight-or-flight’ in men and ‘tend-and-befriend’ in women (4). 

We need to educate girls about all of this from an early age – about how and why begin neurodivergent might place them more at risk, to safeguard against the grooming and coercive control. And this needs to start immediately as there has never been a more important time to teach all children about what healthy relating is and isn’t as we see a rise in blatant, overt, misogyny (5) and escalation in online grooming (6). It is not the responsibility of girls to protect themselves from predators – it is the responsibility of society protect them. And this requires us all to be the change we want to see. Whilst, in our homes, schools and services we also need to first and foremost prioritise prevention, not simply focus on cure.

As part of the NdC Grooming and Coercive Control Summit in November I will be sharing about the importance of relating and coregulation as part of the safeguarding and prevention strategies to deploy in relation to this topic. Alongside this I will be speaking to the importance of education for all of us, on these topics and the pivotal part we, as adults, need to take, as mentors, coaches, and also as role models and advocates of belonging, healthy relating and non-abusive dynamics, because ‘we can’t be it, if we can’t see it’ – and this is especially true for marginalised groups in society, of which autistic girls are one. 
GCC Summit 2023 Webinars are available for free. 

References
1 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnbeh.2022.852203/full
‘Evidence That Nine Autistic Women Out of Ten Have Been Victims of Sexual Violence’
2 https://www.nspcc.org.uk/what-is-child-abuse/types-of-abuse/grooming
3 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnint.2022.871227/full
4https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3425245/#:~:text=-FIGHT%2DOR%2DFLIGHT%20V%2F,and%2Dbefriend'%20in%20women 
5 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-66101396
6 https://www.nspcc.org.uk/about-us/news-opinion/2022/online-grooming-crimes-rise


This is a repost of a blog originally posted here: https://ndconnection.co.uk/blog/easy-prey-autistic-girls-and-women?rq=aldred

Original post date 8th November 2023.